Channel 7 Today Tonight (Adelaide)

Finding Peter Liddy's guns - 25 April 2005

This version of the transcript has been edited by Dr Robert N Moles

In order of appearance

Leigh McClusky, Presenter
Byron Mills, Former victim of Liddy
Graham Archer, Producer and Interviewer
Andrew Martin, Former victim of Liddy
Norm Leeshman, Investigator
Peter Liddy [file footage]
Neil Jenman, Real Estate Watchdog
Peter Lewis, Former Speaker [File footage]
Jay Weatherill, Minister [File footage]
Mike Rann, Premier [File footage]
Michael Atkinson, Attorney-General [File footage]

Program

Leigh McCluskey

Tonight a special Today Tonight investigation and an extraordinary breakthrough in the mystery surrounding former magistrate, Peter Liddy's hidden assets. With the aid of skilled investigators and after an intensive three-year search, Today Tonight now has the evidence that others couldn't find - and even denied ever existed; having finally tracked down Peter Liddy's extremely valuable collection of antique Colt revolvers from the American West. Now despite being pilloried in Parliament and also being subjected to court action, this program has always held the view that Peter Liddy's victims had been deceived over the true extent and value of his historic collections.

Now, given what we've uncovered, the situation well and truly demands a review, as do those prominent people who knew, or should have known, that things weren't as they seemed. Graham Archer has this exclusive and remarkable report.

Byron Mills

I guess that's what maybe the monster's lawyers are banking on, is that we'll eventually just give up because it's just been an ongoing saga and you can understand why people just walk away from these court cases, because they just take too long.

Graham Archer

If ever there was a case of hunting for the smoking gun, this is it. What do you reckon?

Byron Mills

Yep! It's definitely them.

Graham Archer

It's been a three-year search like no other. And Today Tonight has managed what no one else could do. We found former magistrate, Peter Liddy's hidden guns. Did you ever think you'd see them again?

Byron Mills

No definitely not. I definitely recognise a couple of them, especially this one here. That was one of his favourites, that one.

Graham Archer

The whole saga would fill a book - and includes the intensive work of three investigators, such as Norm Leeshman.

Norm Leeshman

I was asked a number of years ago to look into investigating the missing assets of Peter Liddy.

Graham Archer

It also involves the use of high-tech criminal intelligence computer software.

Norm Leeshman

I think the wisdom that Today Tonight's shown in utilising this type of sophisticated software and investigators per se to secure their information is far and above their peers.

Graham Archer

For legal reasons, we can only tell you a small portion of what we've uncovered, but it's still quite a story.

Byron Mills

There's definitely quite a few dollars there. He visited gun shows quite often. Yes, I know, there's definitely some stories and history behind those guns.

Graham Archer

And not any gun would do, it had to be -   

Byron Mills

No, it had to be the best. He was a bit of a perfectionist in that way. I guess you don't realise as a child, but as I've learnt now that he was definitely a perfectionist in what he collected and what he was after, but again there's more guns than this. There's rifles. There's also rifles, so -

Graham Archer

What you are seeing is just part of Liddy's coveted hidden treasure – 18 historic Colt revolvers, including these two remarkable sheriff specials with consecutive serial numbers. Guns if sold, Liddy claimed, that would bring a record price.

Peter Liddy

[File tape] I've searched for about 15 years to get two consecutive numbered revolvers. I'd go through all these auction catalogues and when I found two guns that matched I'd go to these auctions and buy them, so I was able to bring back together two guns that were separated about 110 years ago.

Graham Archer

This never before seen video, taken during a guided tour of Liddy's mansion by the Police Historical Society back in 1993, helps reveal the breadth of Liddy's collection, such as this.

Peter Liddy

[File tape] An important historic item in here is this. It's the seal of the Supreme Court Judge in Victoria, who sentenced Ned Kelly to death. I bought it at an auction in Victoria .

Graham Archer

Though we've been attacked in Parliament and subjected to court action, we believe the full story behind the sale of Liddy's house and contents had not been told. Victims like Andy Martin too knew something was wrong.

Andrew Martin

Justice hasn't been done as far as us victims are concerned. We've been betrayed.

Graham Archer

To begin with, there was the bizarre saga involving conman Terry Stephens, who purchased Liddy's house in a private deal and the luckless Peter Lewis, who  Stephens wrongly accused of later stealing the guns, that Stephens never possessed.

Peter Lewis

They've got their hand up his back, manipulating what he's saying and what he's doing for their grubby campaign of vilification and hatred against me.

Graham Archer

But we're about to take you behind the scenes. After Liddy was gaoled in June 2001 for abusing junior life savers, a number of his victims, including Byron Mills, the first with the courage to expose Liddy's activities, recommenced their court action, suing for damages. They were granted a court injunction, freezing all of Liddy's assets, so that funds would be available should they win their claims. You must have thought at that stage, things were going in the right direction.

Byron Mills

I guess there's been sort of hopes of where you raise your hopes and you think it's all going to work out well and all of a sudden, you then get a phone call from the lawyer, saying it's not that good after all.

Graham Archer

Aside from forbidding any removal, sale or hiding of assets, the court also demanded the production of a complete catalogue of what Liddy owned, but that has never materialised. Was there ever a credible list of assets provided?

Byron Mills

Not to my knowledge, no.

Graham Archer

This video is more than an insight into Liddy's extraordinary collections. It's a step on the way to showing who knew what about Liddy's life. 

Peter Liddy

[file tape] This was the chapel. There was some trepidation that I turned it into a bar-room.

Graham Archer

In attendance is this man, whom South Australians have come to know well. It's Eugene McGee, Peter Liddy's long-time friend and lawyer, who it's clear was intimate with his collection and who had a particular affection for the bar. In this case, not the criminal bar.

Peter Liddy

[file tape] Eugene McGee, the barrister, who was out the front with me when you came, used to go to school here when it was a chapel and he's a bit of a Rumpole and he said to me it's now a much greater place of reverence.

Graham Archer

It was McGee who knew only too well the extent of the assets and had even led Liddy in evidence to the criminal court, giving extensive details of his various collections.

Bystander - Q: Is that collection a valuable collection? 

Liddy - A: Yes the shipwrecked treasure collection is particularly valuable.

Byron Mills

If it's already blatantly obvious it's a fact that yes, you owned this and you owned it then, well that should be allowed when it comes to the civil matters as well.

Graham Archer

And the question asked, well where is it? Where is it now?

Byron Mills

I haven't seen it and I very much doubt I will ever see it.

Graham Archer

When Liddy secretly purchased this house in Kadina in the false name of Peter Dix, it was Eugene McGee, who told the court Liddy had sought and was granted permission to do so. 'As I say, he got advice from the LTO [Land Titles Office] to say it was perfectly appropriate for him to purchase the Kadina property in the name of Peter Dix'.

Neil Jenman

And often the police and the authorities, they don't even understand what's being done.

Graham Archer

While no one from Minister, Michael Wright's department was prepared to put their face to public policy, this email confirms, no such permission would ever be granted. Real Estate watchdog, Neil Jenman says the whole system of transparent property transactions would fail if this conduct was ever permitted.

Neil Jenman

My word it should be a matter for the police because this is fraud and fraud is a police matter.

Graham Archer

McGee, as a lawyer, ought to have known the position. After all, he'd been a civil defendant in Adelaide 's biggest real estate fraud in the late ‘80s and was accused of witnessing phoney signatures himself, although that case never went to trial. But now enters another key player, Bill Morris.

Byron Mills

I said from day one that we're opening a can of worms here when I went to the police and I think we'll go on to find many more high profile names will come out.

Graham Archer

Morris, exactly like McGee, was a former police officer and police prosecutor turned lawyer. He was also a close friend of Liddy's, acting both as his lawyer and power of attorney.

Andrew Martin

You cannot get any closer than that Graham, without being a Siamese twin.

Graham Archer

It was Morris who had most of the direct dealings with Liddy's assets as caretaker of Shenandoah. Some caretaker. Despite the court's intention to protect the assets in the midst of a series of attempted break-ins Morris, on orders from Liddy, cancelled the contents insurance policy covering many of the valuable items inside the house. 

Byron Mills

It's staggering. I mean let's face it if your place had been broken into three times one would think that you'd keep the policy going. 

Graham Archer

The policy offered more than just protection, it also carried a detailed list of many of Liddy's prized possessions, which have simply disappeared. 

Byron Mills

Again nothing ceases to amaze me in this whole case.

Graham Archer

A short time later there was a successful break-in and this amazing collection of valuable antique bottles was removed - without breakages, from one of the only rooms without a sensor alarm.

Peter Liddy

[File tape] I started collecting when I was 16, so there are about 1,500 of them. They come from 15 separate countries.

Graham Archer

The victims were told that the stolen bottles were worthless. They were also told the insurance had lapsed because the house was unoccupied, but when we found the policy document it confirmed the cover was active with a thousand dollar excess on any claims, but it was then deliberately cancelled.

Byron Mills

So all the bottles got stolen and there was only one room. Well, I think all these facts and evidence just prove that maybe some more questions need to be answered.

Graham Archer

Just for the record you'll recall last year the same Bill Morris was appointed as an investigator in the Mullighan inquiry into sexual abuse of wards of the State by Minister, Jay Weatherill. That is until Today Tonight revealed Morris' close relationship with Liddy. And Minister Weatherill's response:

Jay Weatherill

[File tape – Parliament] Well, I'm afraid sir - I'm afraid sir I did not foresee - I did not foresee a scurrilous and appalling and dishonest attack on a decent South Australian.

Graham Archer

Weatherill has refused to correct the public record.

Jay Weatherill

[File tape – Parliament] Well – well – well -  

Leigh McCluskey

Well next, as our special investigation continues, how did Peter Liddy's valuable gun collection manage to mysteriously go missing and why wasn't there ever a thorough investigation?

Break

Leigh McCluskey

Well, when it came to complying with a court order of valuing and cataloguing Peter Liddy's assets the job was handed to possibly one of the least appropriate candidates, a close friend of the convicted paedophile, and you might ask when - well, we might ask why, rather, when those valuable colt revolvers were found to have mysteriously disappeared no questions were really asked. But Peter Liddy's victims can now rest assured that those questions and many more are being asked by members of the Fraud Squad. Graham Archer continues his story.

Byron Mills

What else hasn't been uncovered over this two and a half - three years? It really opens up the doors to a lot more things.

Graham Archer

If what you've heard so far of the sale of gaoled magistrate Peter Liddy's assets is hard to believe, there's still much more. The person who was supposed to prepare the independent valuation was actually a friend of Liddy's.

Byron Mills

I can only go by what I'd do in life. I mean I wouldn't have an associate of someone checking something out. It should be independent and even if three or four people were asked or at least two to go and buy what one person says staggers me as well.

Graham Archer

Well, enter yet another lawyer and long time Liddy friend, Eric Van Kruyssen. Incredibly put forward as an independent expert, supposedly to provide the court and the victim's lawyers with an accurate catalogue and valuation to allow the sale of the house and contents, and despite his obligation to be thorough Van Kruyssen added the following escape clause:

I do not pretend this is a comprehensive list of items in the residence.  I have not looked in every cupboard.

Byron Mills

Obviously the monster had an association with him because of his knowledge in the field.

Graham Archer

But we now know items were removed from the house at the time of the injunction and before the sale to Terry Stephens. Many of those things have never been recovered.

Byron Mills

There's a lot more assets I believe out there that the plaintiffs are entitled to.

Graham Archer

Also no-one bothered to check these assets on the historic Shipwreck's Register, either to assist in a proper catalogue or to ensure Liddy wasn't breaking Commonwealth and State laws in selling historic items without a permit, which in fact did happen.

Peter Liddy

[File tape] The pistols belong to the colony of Massachusetts - they've got their stamp on the side.

Graham Archer

And there's much more that at present we can't reveal, but there's a political element to this scandal which we can at last put straight – this time the lawyer in question is the Attorney-General, Michael Atkinson, who, with Premier Mike Rann, assured us in 2002, as a result of our questions, that the sale would be investigated by the Solicitor-General, Brad Selway.

Mike Rann - Premier

[File tape] Whilst I haven't seen the Channel 7 program that I think it's - I've asked the Attorney-General to view it and I understand that he's taking the matter very seriously.

Graham Archer

How many times have we heard that line?  A few weeks later Atkinson told Parliament everything was fine and no further investigations were necessary.

Michael Atkinson

[File tape – Parliament] There's an obviously public interest in informing the House and the public what is being done to investigate these allegations.

Graham Archer

The answer? Almost nothing. What the Attorney-General put to Parliament, yet again, was a white wash. The video, the insurance policy, the Shipwreck Register, breaches of the court order and the recovery of the guns show we've been right from the beginning.

Michael Atkinson

[File tape – Parliament] Releasing the report of the Solicitor-General would not be in the public interest. 

Graham Archer

We've continued over the last three years uncovering more and more evidence. Now, I suppose this puts to bed any suggestion that the guns never existed?

Byron Mills

Definitely. It's always upset me a fair bit when people doubted what we were telling them back then. I mean along from the start to now people doubted the whole thing saying, you know, 'this guy was a good bloke' and so forth, but maybe this is also going to put a couple of notches on the belt to prove that he's an absolute monster and should do his time.

Graham Archer

We can't disclose the location of the guns, but on Friday we handed them on to the police.

Tony Rankine

Yes, we certainly appreciate the fact that you've located these weapons and given them to our possession.

Graham Archer

Tony Rankine heads Major Fraud. He and his detectives over a couple of years deserve significant credit for taking our information seriously. 

Tony Rankine

They will certainly add value to our lines of inquiry and we expect to conclude this matter much quicker than we otherwise would have.

Graham Archer

As for the message so far; this state needs more than political grandstanding about the operations of our criminal justice system. Our reputation as it stands is mud, but if we've got anything to do with it the truth will out.

Byron Mills

I think it's disgusting that again maybe authorities haven't had as much passion I guess that Channel 7's been fortunate to have – the investigators have had passion in their job and yourself as well, that you wanted to see the answers to all these questions because I guess from the start you were the very - one of the very few persons that actually believed and understood where this was all going and there's a lot more doors that can be
opened, and I think this will open a few more.

Leigh McCluskey

Graham Archer with that exclusive report.

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